to war or not to war
It seems to me that there are some bad decisions being made on Capital Hill these days. Whether one agrees with going to war or not, the reality is that pulling out now would be a disaster. Democrats seem to ignore this fact and want to win some points with the American people.
The situation seems similar to the decision to have surgery on a brain tumor. Everyone admits that there is cancer. Everyone knows it's dangerous. But some people want to just use radiation to get rid of it and others want radiation and surgery to attack the tumor. Radiation is good, but offers no guarantees that you will kill the tumor. Surgery is dangerous and may kill the person, but it also might be the only thing that can save the person's life. One still needs radiation even after surgery just for caution, but it isn't as necessary.
This was the decision that President Bush faced years ago. Should we do surgery on Iraq and remove the cancer or should we just keep our distance and allow the radiation of political pressure to work its magic. The President knew political pressure was necessary, but believed only surgery would remove the cancer. If not dealt with soon enough, the cancer would spread to the U.S. as it did on 9/11.
But here is the deal with choosing surgery. If you decide to have it, you must stay under the knife until all of the cancer is gone. If you close up too early, the body is left in worse shape than it was before. The immune system is down. The body is all cut up and sewn back together. And the cancer is still there.
There is no halfway when it comes to surgery. If a surgeon goes in, he has to complete the surgery he set out to do. If he doesn't, he shouldn't have gone in at all. This is where the Democrats have lost their perspective when it comes to this war.
It's like all the people who wanted to just do radiation get together and right in the middle of the surgery decide that the surgery isn't going so well. So because the surgery isn't going so well, all the people who voted for the radiation option want the doctor to stop what he is doing and sew everything back up. And in order to insure the doctor stops, they want to cut his salary and stop supplying the much needed blood and anti-biotics needed to proceed in the surgery.
This may save the hospital money and resources and it will save the hours that the doctor would have spent on the rest of the surgery, but it won't save the life of the person on the table. You can't, as a nation, decide to do surgery on another nation and then decide to stop halfway through. It's unethical and immoral.
I have no problem with those who say that we should have never gone to Iraq in the first place. Just like I have no problem with the person who argues for radiation treatment instead of surgery. Both views have valid points. But once you cut open a body and start removing the tumor, you must finish the job. As a nation, to do otherwise is selfish and devastatingly harmful to the other nation.
Dems are so proud of themselves for finally "standing up to this President." They pat themselves on the back and whisper to each other about how many seats they will pick up in Congress because of this political move. All the while they demoralize the surgeon and the patient who is under the knife. I wish for once we Americans could get beyond ourselves. I wish the Dems in Congress would realize that if we go into another part of the world and cut open a country, we must be willing to stay and put it back together.
posted by Mark @ 1:10 PM
13 comments
13 Comments:
mark,
normally you have great posts, but this one i flat out disagree with :)
first off: one of my pet peeves is relating 9/11 and iraq. they aren't. never were. maybe they are now. because of US being there. they had NOTHING to do with each other. nothing.
second: why are we there? dinero. money. that's it. if we were there out of the graciousness of our hearts, the caring of those suffering, we would be in darfur. we would have been in rwanda. we would be in a lot of places BEFORE iraq. but why are we there? O-I-L. M-O-N-E-Y.
third: i really believe the dems want to see iraq a stable and safe and free nation. i think many want to see us (the americans) equip the iraqi people with the ability to stop the insurgents. but we MUST first admit we are enabling them. we are fueling their cause!
i think what the dems are seeing is too much blood being shed and not many lives being saved. and we don't see any lives being saved in the future. why did we leave vietnam? korea? because no matter what we put into it, we weren't going to do much good...only more harm. and that's the same here. we should have NEVER gone to korea, vietnam, iraq. but we did. so do we waste more lives because we as americans (and republicans) want to "save FACE"? i think the answer is no. and that is what I think the dems (and others) are coming to realize.
and btw....surgery examples are not the best ones to use...there are many (and i'm sure your mom and sis can attest to this) that i've already seen...where the patient who undergoes surgery actually comes out WORSE than going into surgery...so doctors like dubbya don't exactly comfort and heal...rather than create more damage and harm than was already there... and that is exactly what happened in iraq...
But what if after going into the brain you find out that the original diagnosis was wrong and the cancer is actually coming from somewhere else. Wouldn't the best move be to sow the head back up and address the real problem?
Scott J.
The following is from Senator Obama's campaign website and I feel is the basis for how the U.S. successfully gets out of this war.
"Senator Obama introduced legislation in January 2007 to offer a responsible alternative to President Bush's failed escalation policy. The legislation commences redeployment of U.S. forces no later than May 1, 2007 with the goal of removing all combat brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008 -- a date consistent with the bipartisan Iraq Study Group's expectations. The plan allows for a limited number of U.S. troops to remain in Iraq as basic force protection, to engage in counter-terrorism and to continue the training of Iraqi security forces. If the Iraqis are successful in meeting the 13 benchmarks for progress laid out by the Bush Administration, this plan also allows for the temporary suspension of the redeployment, provided Congress agrees that the benchmarks have been met."
Scott J.
Rebecca,
You make some of the same points I make in my post. I am not arguing about whether we had a reason to be there in the first place. I am saying that if we open the can of worms, right or wrong, we need to stay to clean it up.
As far as Vietnam and Korea, they also support my point. After we left Vietnam, there was a blood bath of violence. The south got slaughtered by the Communist north. Vietnam is Communist to this day.
And look at what has come of not finishing the job in North Korea. The cancer not only came back, it came back stronger and nastier. Now North Korea is threatening the world with Nuclear weapons.
We should have learned these leasons by now but I guess we haven't.
Scott,
I don't think any Americans want our troups in harms way. I hate hearing about more dead soldiers. I think we can all agree on that.
Obama's plan sounds reasonable. But public time-tables are stupid. It just gives the enemy a chance to wait and re-emerge.
If the Dems want a top secret time-table based on progress and not just months of the year, I am all for it. But announcing to our enemy that we will politely be leaving in March is a receipe for disaster.
The Dems best argument is that we shouldn't have been in Iraq. But now, that argument is pointless. If we are in, we better be in 100%. Otherwise, we have just created more problems for ourselves and the Iraqi people.
I have to disagree with the fact that we are just in this for money and oil. I guess I can only look at Bush's character and what I see on the outside, but I have to firmly believe in my heart that he thinks he is doing the right thing. And maybe because he thinks it is, doesn't necessarily mean it is, but don't we all go through that as Christians? Let's take marriage for example. I have friends who have looked back on their decision and feel they might have married the wrong guy. Okay, so what if they did, does that mean they get a divorce or do they pray and ask God to make right what was wrong? It's like you're saying, Mark, I guess just a different example. We have no idea what God wants or what kind of relationship Bush has with the Lord. If you take it to Scripture there was a time for war and a time for peace. When Scripture talks about end times, war is inevitable.
I really want to believe that Bush is truly doing the best he can. My mother brought up an interesting point the other day. Sometimes, we as Christians, make decisions that aren't the popular decision. You have to admit, Bush made the decision that most people didn't want, but look at it this way. He didn't go with the popular vote, he did what he felt needed to be done. Who knows? Maybe that shows that he is following God and not the ways of man.
You see, in this human mind, we think we are so wise and know so much, but I sometimes have to ask myself, how much do I really know? We can't even get into the mind of God and why things happen. I just try to "believe in the weave," and know that everything works together for some reason, whether it's by choice of our own human will or not, but God's hand is still in there.
Unfortunately, we don't have a "personal relationship" with Bush, so we don't really know him or why. All we have to lean on is the media, and I can tell you one thing, most media is unreliable and only report the "popular" news, what people want to hear, what gets the ratings.
I also am not saying whether Bush is right or wrong, but I support him because he is our leader and we are at war, so now we have to finish it. I know many people in the Army or Navy and I can tell you, the troops don't want to hear how this war is wrong and we need to pull out the troops. This is where we are now, the troops want our support and prayers because they are honorably defending our country. They don't want to hear the negative and the fighting over who is right and who is wrong. In fact, I've also heard many who have been to Iraq that have agreed, that we need to finish the job. To me, these are more reliable sources than the media.
I can understand why most people are against war and war is very sad with all the deaths of some wonderful people. But I ask you, if someone were to come into your home and invade your home and try to hurt your spouse or children, or family, do you just sit there and let them, or do you defend your home, and if you have weapon or something, do you hurt them or even kill them out of self defense? After all, you are protecting your household. Don't you think that Bush could be doing the same thing, protecting our country? I know that's the unpopular stance, but I would almost rather side with the unpopular viewpoint, just so I'm not going with what everyone else is saying, the "worldview."
If you look at Mark 13:5-31, it shows that this is to happen. I will quote a piece of it, "...When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom... I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened..." It's just like when they crucified Christ. His disciples and family didn't want it to happen and they wanted to protect Him, but they couldn't, because it had to happen and Jesus knew that. We don't always know why or we don't always agree, but regardless, we are approaching end times and need to be focusing on Truth. We are called to do a job and there are times to take a stand for what is wrong, but maybe, we are to use these trials, these wars, to help further God's kingdom and God's purpose, in whatever way He calls you to do it.
Sometimes I wonder if we get ourselves too caught up in who's right and who's wrong, that we miss the big picture. There are only so many hours in a day and so many days in a week. I'm just scratching the surface of realizing that I need to stay focused in prayer, and in Scripture, and in fellowship, and keeping my eye on the prize. "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross... so that you will not grow weary and lose heart" Hebrews 12:1-3.
I wanted to add one final thing. We should be praying about our leaders and governments, rather than making assumptions about circustances we can't fully be sure about. I'm convinced there is a lot about government that is kept secret. "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness... I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing" 1 Timothy 2:1-8 I don't know about any of you out there, but I know that isn't always the first place I go, but it should be. To me, that's a start to how we, as Christians, should handle this whole war thing. And in prayer, we must match it with Scripture.
Mark,
So I’m not so great at convincing arguments, as you know ☺ But I like what Scoot posted. Barack and much of Congress have seen the importance of leaving Iraq securely. They set out a plan for training Iraqi troops to handle the problems in their own country. And if they do NOT meet those, they will extend the time they are there. This seems fair. We are not leaving them empty handed or vulnerable. We are equipping them with what they need to take care of themselves. It’s a handup, not a handout ☺ And if we REALLY want to be police in the world, maybe we can march ourselves to Darfur and do some good there.
Ecclesia-
This country prides itself in democracy. And we are so quick to want to give other countries that very same opportunity (ex: right now in Iraq). We pride ourselves on it, think it is the greatest thing. And it is. There are flaws, but the principle of every person having representation, having a voice – we are so ‘proud’ of this.
But – part of being in this democracy is that we have the RIGHT to voice our opinions, we have the right to say we think our president is doing a bad job, making bad choices. Just because we voted him in, doesn’t mean that God approves his actions! Sure, God uses bad situations in his own way to make good. But we have the privilege of disagreeing with our president in this ‘free’ government, why then should we not use it??
I choose to do so. From the start I was against the Iraq war. And in actuality, Bush chose the FAVORABLE position – most people wanted to go to war with Iraq. Even Hillary Clinton and a good number of democrats! Bush did NOT choose the hard road. He chose the easy road, riding the wave of emotion of the American people after 9/11 to craft his own agenda. He used us. And you still want to back him up?
More on his horrible tactics - he used our emotions – a good amount of information has since surfaced about the start of the war that was incorrect – remember the convincing ‘weapons of mass destruction’ and all the ‘pictures’ and ‘proof’ they had? Hmm, well there isn’t any, and they later admitted they made it up, so that we, the American people, would agree to go to war. I don’t want to back up a president that thinks we are pawns he can use!?!
We live in a democracy, and we choose who we put our trust in. Just because Bush is our president doesn’t mean that I have the duty to trust him. Especially as a Christian. I think this makes no difference. Christian or not, I can choose to trust our president, or question him all I want.
I question him when he is so quick to want to war against a country that has natural resources close to his heart (and family business), but NOT to a good number of countries that have NOTHING to offer financially!
We as Americans, and many of us Christians, hope that our actions are dictated by our faith. But the way we conduct our foreign relations shows very little of Christ-like actions. ‘Love your enemy’ is more like ‘let’s go to war against our enemy’ and ‘give to the poor’ is ‘let’s see how rich we can be and how little we can give to others.’ Honestly, I don’t see much Christ-like action in our president, in our government, in the foreign relations of our government. And I am not going to ‘trust’ they know more than I do and so I should remain silent. I will instead hold my president as accountable as I can as an American citizen. Accountability is a good thing, and he doesn’t have any (or very little and needs more). And Congress is supposed to be a form of accountability for the president, yet there are hundreds of people that disagree with Bush and that doesn’t send up warning flags in our minds and hearts?? And Bush refuses to listen to them? THAT is scary to me. Very very scary. But what is scarier to me is Americans saying that other countries (ex: Iraq) NEED democracy, yet we ourselves don’t use it!
First of all, I want to thank you Rebecca for this discussion. It really has me thinking as I'm bouncing these thoughts around and I would love to hear more. I know you probably don't know me, but don't take anything I say personal or as an attack. I know it's tough to interpret tone through a written comment on a blog, but this conversation has forced me to dig deeper into Scripture about this very matter.
Anyways, I think I may have slightly been misunderstood. In no way, shape, or form do I believe we should put our faith in Bush. In fact, I think I was saying the complete opposite and that's why I called us to prayer. In fact, I don't think we should put our faith in any human because man will fail us somehow. We are not perfect. Even the best of believers will fail us and possibly make wrong decisions. Our full faith, our full trust needs to be in the Lord. Our eyes must be upward.
I guess what I was trying to say is that it's so easy to get caught up in who's right and who's wrong and if we keep harping on it, and we aren't careful, it can lead to anger and bitterness, which anger is healthy to a degree. We've been in Iraq for over 4 years now and people are still hooting and hollering over how Bush made the wrong decision or we shouldn't be there or he needs to pull the troops out and come home. I guess I'm trying to move past that. I'm sure for years and even before it, people out there were praying against the war. God hasn't stopped it. At this point, we need to finish what was started.
As for Bush not being Christ-like, I have to admit, I'm not totally well-tuned into politics, and for this very reason. Just about anyone you talk to gets their facts from some type of news source. Some news sources are very liberal, some very conservative. I have had friends that went to school for journalism and will admit, you're supposed to speak the news as it is, however it's easy to get your own personal bias twisted up in it. Let's removed Bush from the picture for a second. All I see on the news is all of the bad things going on in Iraq, you hear about all the killings, you see the bloodshed and the bombings. Then I hear people that have been there who talk about the good things like souls being won for Christ, and the Iraqi people welcoming their American friends and so happy that we are there to help set them free. Why doesn't the news cover that? Maybe war is right, maybe it is wrong, but think about the opportunity. Unfortunately Scripture isn't clear enough to me. I see Scripture pointing either direction. Think of all of the Christian soldiers who are there right now witnessing to this Muslim nation.
I don't want to open another can of worms, but I will briefly mention the idea of the illegal immigration for a second. Most of us out there are against it, as we should be. It's quite obvious why this shouldn't be happening. But case and point. We, as Christians, have an opportunity in this "wrongful" situation to witness to people from other countries right here in our own country. We have an opportunity to show them Christ's love. I could go on all day and be bitter about illegal immigration, or I can take this bad situation and use it for something good.
Now, back to Bush, how do we know for sure that Bush didn't feel led by God to go to war? Bush wasn't that quick to send us to Iraq. There was a good period of time between 911 and the time the troops were sent. How do we know he didn't wrestle with this for a long time? In fact, he did not take immediate action, there was a lapse in time. How do we know what was going on in his heart at that time? I guess I feel like I can't judge what I don't know.
I was doing some research today, and I'd like to leave you with a small article I read on war and what the Bible says about it. http://www.gotquestions.org/war-Bible.html Just like anything, really test it and pray over it. It's short, but gives some Scriptural references and a lot of this article makes sense. It is very balanced and probably doesn't help either cause as to whether Bush is right or wrong.
It is hard to believe that war is even a thought when we are to "love our enemies." But I think, as Christians, there is a degree of love we just dont' understand and can only learn as we grow deeper in our faith walk. Just as I said in my example of acting in self-defense. I love my family and I'm also supposed to love anyone that comes in and invades my home, but I still have a responsibility to protect my home at whatever cost. Just maybe out of love for this country and it's people, Bush acted in self-defense. We truly do not know his soul. Do we really know his heart?
So, I think that it isn't a matter of whether or not Bush is wrong anymore, perhaps we'll never know until we're in heaven one day, but this decision is about our actions. Yes, we have a right to free speech, and we have a right to our opinions. As I said earlier, there is a time to voice our thoughts and opinions, however we've been doing this for over 4 years, doing the same thing, repeating the same thing. It's like a broken record. Our perspective should be, how do we as Christians move forward? Sometimes we get so focused on living in the past, coulda, woulda, shoulda. If we harp on that, we lose focus. There are obvious unanswered questions. So, we pray, pray, pray and put all our faith in God. If Bush is the enemy to some of you out there, then keep praying for him, even if he's not the enemy. God does know the answers, God knows Bush's heart and God will judge. And if we truly are to take actions against Bush, we really need to soul search and truly be sure that God is calling that. If not, perhaps some of this arguing we all do is a waste of time that we could be doing something more productive. To me, it's contrary to Scripture, but there's a lot in Scripture I admitedly dont' know, I can only go based on what I do know, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
I sometimes feel sorry for Bush. He has had a rough administration as president. I can't get over the major events and disasters that have occured over the last 6 years or so. I know he took on the task, but still. I think of the stress I deal with in my own daily life just juggling a part-time job and taking care of my child. I think I would have a nervous breakdown if I had to take on the struggles of this country and this world. I get anxious just thinking about these struggles. I guess that's why I'm not in office. My point is, Bush hasn't had it easy. And I could probably find fault and bad decisions in every president in office, but instead of letting bitterness and anger run our emotions, we, as a country, and as Christians need to get down on our knees and start praying. I really believe as Scripture says, it's only going to get worse. We need to be standing together and doing the right thing and keeping our focus on Christ. That is where our faith lies and it has to start with prayer. I can tell you, I spend more time reading the Bible, researching on the internet, watching TV and debating people all day long over who's right and who's wrong, but there's one place I always find it hard to go, and that's prayer. I think as a church, this is what's happened. I won't go any further but save that for the next post on my blog. I'm learning a lot these days.
So, with all that being said, I hope none of this was taken personally. I guess I'm just tired of the same ole arguement about how much Bush sucks and he can't do anything right and he's just evil. For some reason, like I said earlier, I have just felt sorry for the man. I really believe by the time he got into office, he was left with a horrible mess and it only kept getting worse. I sometimes want to weep over the mess that this country is in and it was a string of people in authority that got us here. It's simply the fall of sin and it can be quite overwhelming. I don't know about you all, but all of this talk will bring me to my knees and start praying more.
Ecclesia-
This has to be short, as I have a review session at 9:30! But I wanted to quickly respond. Thank you for your response. If I misunderstood you, I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to.
I am not going to debate this anymore, because 1) this would be a super long debate and 2) you and I don’t know each other very well (yeah, we’ve met - I’m Chlamydia girl! And for those of you who don’t know about that, it means I worked in a Chlamydia lab, and no, I do NOT have Chlamydia!)
As Mark, Aaron, Scoot can all tell you, I have very far out views on some things (if you care to ask them, ask about politics, native american treatment, etc ☺ I’m sure they’d love telling you how crazy I am), and for much of politics I tend to be in a very different place than most Christians. So I think debating it with you would just be, as you said, a waste of time (with it continuing and continuing) when we could be out loving God and loving people.
You and I both have the same intentions as Christians, and we want to see the same things happen…we want to see people live a good life, we don’t want to see death, we want to see the most out of this short time on earth, and we want to see God’s kingdom grow. We just see how to go about that in a completely different way when it comes to American politics ☺
I hope I didn’t come across as mean, or attacking, or whatever, cause I’m not, and not always the best at articulation, both with convincing and concise statements, as well as emotion. But I don’t know much about you and your hubby and your cute little guy, but the little I’ve talked to you guys, you all seem awesome! And from what I’ve heard about you guys getting more involved with Horizon, you are now and will be a huge blessing to the community, and I’m thankful God has brought you guys there!!
So, if you want to talk more about this, you can call me up, or one time while I’m in Balitmore (I’m there every 3 weeks or so) or just leave it be- it doesn’t matter ☺ Hope you have an awesome weekend.
Oh, okay, so I do know who you are! No, I didn't take anything offensively, I completely saw that you were just passionate about what you believe, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. To tell you honestly, I don't know a whole lot about politics, but it's true, I tend to take a different approach to the whole thing anyways. I will end it at saying this, I have taken your thoughts into consideration and dove into some more Scripture and I'm wrestling with some thoughts in my mind about the whole war and peace thing and what God intends when it comes to war, so in that, I'm thankful for this conversation. I've wrestled with this for years and I may have been brought to some Scripture that may have changed my thought a little bit, but I won't get into it because I haven't fully thought it out yet. I know I tend to have my views too, but that doesn't mean they can't change, that's why I like having these conversations. It's a learning experience for me.
Anyways, thanks for understanding too and I'm perfectly fine at leaving it as is. I just get on my soapbox sometimes and enjoy the debate. I should've taken a debate class in high school. My mother always told me I should've been a lawyer. Haha! I do like to argue peacefully, of course. Again I enjoyed the conversation, I will talk to everyone soon, I hope.
Mark,
It took me some time of thought and a few revisions of how I intended to respond but after much thought here goes.
I totally agree with your post on the current war situation. Now, I am not here to agree or disagree with any of the comments posted. I have no intention of creating more chaos.
The war, weather right or wrong, is what it is. I feel as though weather or not George Bush made the correct or incorrect decision to send in troops is now a non-issue because unfortunatly it happened end of story. If you agree or disagree with the military stratagy of this Govenrment, voice your opinion through the voting process or shut up. It is now a time to come together as a nation, united as one and support our troops, pray for their well being and a peaceful resolution to conflict. Congress needs to stand behind their President in a time of crisis, not tear him to shreads for acting upon the intelligence information provided. That is all the President can base his stratagy on. Once again if you do not agree with an elected official, the best thing you can do is vote them out of office when the appointed time arrives. Now, in the case of Mr. Bush, only time will tell. The folks who are up in arms over Mr. Bush's decision to war have only 20 more months plus to deal with this then you can all elcet on of the candidates who look forward to pulling out and then the entire Middle East will become an Islamic haven so deadly and tortuous that we will rue the day we decided to ever pull out. You see Mark you are so correct in comparing Vietnam and Korea, because it won't be Iraq that will be our problem, but the greater threat Iran.
Finishing the job is the only logical solution to the problem. Allowing the enemy advance warning will be in no simpler terms "the greatest, most catastrophic decision in our nation's military history" It would also be a disservice to our men and women in uniform. As a former enlisted I can speak for the thousands of men and women perserving our freedom that we need to finish the job. I continue to pray for these "Heros"!
Well, I am sure that I have really fired some folks up with this comment. I am just speaking my mind. Please do not, I repeat do not take this personally anyone who commented. I am signing off now.
Nooma,
Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for your service to this country in the military.
Scott,
I hope that if a Dem is in the White House they will think about long-term global peace and not just about what Americans want right now.
Rebecca,
I hope in the future that you will allow others to be as passionately critical of a President who holds your views as you are of Bush.
ecclesia,
There seems to be no easy answer here. As Christians we must wrestle with tough issues of war and peace. There isn't really a "Christian" view out there.
Every political view that hopes for peace, tries to love our enemies and tries to defend those whom our enemies oppress is a "Christian" view.
Right now, I think both Republicans and Democrats who are Christian want all of these things. So the question we are left with is, "Does one way of handling the war honor God more than another way?"
If the answer to that question is yes, we search for "that way." If the answer to that question is no, then we pray that the current way of dealing with this conflict will promote peace rather than violence.
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